00:00:04 John Daub: Welcome to Yamagata. This in front of you is Toko Sake Brewery. Well, this is the museum. They used to brew sake here, but it's now a pretty impressive museum with a lot of antiques and things that they used many generations ago to make Japanese sake. That strong building in the distance looks like a storehouse. Very thick walls made in the old Edo period designs. Very exciting. And we get a chance to take a look inside of this museum and more importantly, get a chance to drink some Japanese sake.

00:00:40 John Daub: How you doing everybody? I'm here in Yamagata. This is Yonezawa, which is very famous for Yonezawa beef. I do like Wagyu very much. A5 Wagyu on the barbecue. And actually, I think we're going to have some of that later today. But first, it's all about the Japanese sake. And Toko is a very popular brand. I know they started to import this in New York and I believe it's also in Las Vegas. So you can get this in North America. This brand has a history going back to the 16th century. Maybe even longer. We're going to be asking the CEO himself about the sake brewery, some of the different types of sake that they make. They also make umeshu (plum liqueur) and a lot of other really delicious stuff. So let's go inside. We kind of have special access and the shop is closed. So it's just us. Me, you and my posse.

00:01:54 John Daub: Oh, hello. So this is Kojima-san. He's the 24th generation CEO of Toko. Pretty incredible. Well, tell me a little bit about the history of your company.

00:02:13 Kojima-san: Yes, my brewery was founded in 1597 here. And I'm a 24th generation of Kojima family. It's owned by only Kojima family for all the history.

00:02:27 John Daub: Yeah. Inside here is a shop. This is also a museum. One of the interesting things with this museum, I thought were the barrels that they have. They've been using porcelain ceramics and then wooden barrels. So I thought maybe before we go into the shop and try some of the sake we'll go take a look at the barrels which I think is pretty cool. So follow Kojima-san. He's wearing the Toko logo on the back of his shirt there. Oh yeah. Yeah we can let's just go right to the wooden barrels. But first I see on the back of your shirt it says this first kanji for Toko but that's not Tokyo that's Toko kind of different. And so Toko is higashi (east) right so this is higashi which means east and this is hikari (light) right which means eastern light or eastern sunrise. It's pretty cool. We'll talk a little bit more about the history of it.

00:03:40 John Daub: I thought this is pretty cool in here you barrels that you used you used to brew the sake in these. Why don't you do that anymore?

00:03:45 Kojima-san: Actually a stainless steel was invented about 100 years ago and rapidly everything changed to stainless steel but we bought a brand new wooden barrel this year so we restart making by wooden barrel. Yeah it the taste does change a little bit with it but I think the life of one barrel was about 15 you said 20 25 years and after you couldn't use it anymore they were used for pickle making and soy sauce. Yeah after 25 years I wouldn't be right can add keep the alcohol inside so you know it's useful but we cannot use for sake anymore.

00:04:41 John Daub: I can hear some music in the background this isn't copyright music right because what are they singing?

00:04:47 Kojima-san: The song is for sake making like for some action or some method. It is for teamwork and also you know stopwatch so this action is about a four minutes action.

00:05:10 John Daub: So we have a four minute action. By singing this song it was a way for them to time the necessary movements for the process for making sake and you have to be very you didn't have stopwatches back in the olden days that's interesting you used music so if you had bad rhythm this could affect the taste so people with bad rhythm would impact the taste of Japanese sake. You had to have people with good rhythm to work here don't pick me I would not do too well.

00:05:49 John Daub: All right so this is in here the shop which is I'm really excited about this part. That you don't make sake here anymore right.

00:05:55 Kojima-san: This is now only for a museum but we make sake at another sake brewery just five minutes on foot from here.

00:06:12 John Daub: Oh okay. I want to see that. I want to jump in one of the barrels and swim. Wait. What is this? This is Japanese very famous gachapon (capsule toy machines).

00:06:26 Kojima-san: I don't speak English how to you know it's very everyone they know gachapon.

00:06:43 John Daub: This is a Japanese sake gachapon. Now the sake is not in the capsule but you can win maybe a bottle. So you put 500 yen it's about five dollars. It's an investment in my future. So let's try this out here. First we need some coins. Oh it's exciting. Are you feeling lucky punk? Let's try this. I'm gonna go with the easy first. You know what no I don't gosh do I go so the easy there's two of them one is easy and one is hard. This one you definitely win something. This one you get a more premium sake. But there's a chance you might win nothing. This is real gambling man. Um okay let's go with the hard one because if I win something then it makes it easy. All right we're gonna go with the hard one first. So there's a high risk high return. Gotcha gotcha pon. Give me the big stuff. Did I lose? It feels like I just automatically assume I lost here. Let's see what I get. Oh number three. That's good right? No. High risk high reward. High risk that was no reward. All right you know what well you're the CEO how many threes are there in there? You can get uh the number one premium sake. About uh one of 40. One out of 40? Sorry I don't like those odds. It is a bit more uh maybe a three or four. A three or four. Okay you know what I don't want to be a loser. So this one at least I win something. Gotta win something. This hand is feeling lucky. Three I won something.

00:09:42 Kojima-san: Yes so you got number three. You can get a small bottle of sake. A small sake glass. Whoa that's difficult. One I can drink and one I can appreciate later.

00:10:01 John Daub: Uh you know what we're gonna drink some sake so maybe I'll just take the glass. We're gonna drink some sake anyways. All right cool. Yeah let's I take the glass. All right now we're inside the shop here. There's no customers. This is something that the shop is open until 4 p.m. right? Until 4 p.m. It's a beautiful shop here. You can check out loads and loads of booze here on the floor. Lots of different kinds. I had a chance to try a couple of them but this one was very impressive and that's not sake. What what is this?

00:10:45 Kojima-san: This is plum sake. Yeah this is plum sake or umeshu.

00:10:51 John Daub: Umeshu yes. But what makes uh Toko's umeshu different?

00:10:55 Kojima-san: This is the plum sake one and number two. This is the number one prize from the biggest Japanese umeshu competition and uh the base spirits uh it's not based from sake but uh sake spirits. I mean after sake pressing uh we can get uh spirits from uh sake lees (sake kasu). It is like a sake grappa. So uh this plum sake is like a sake grappa with plum.

00:11:29 John Daub: So this is a very big bottle 1.8 liters and then there's a 500 half a liter bottle. If you open a bottle of umeshu how long uh do you have to drink it right away?

00:11:43 Kojima-san: Uh it goes a very long time. I mean uh of course that quality would be changed but you can keep it as far as you keep in refrigerator maybe a one month two month is fine.

00:11:58 John Daub: Wow. So you could buy one of these oh it's pretty heavy. You could buy one of these really big um 1.8 liter umeshus. If you're a fan of umeshu umeshu is really good but this umeshu is maybe one of the best I've ever had ever. It was just I don't know I'll I'll try some of it and explain to you the taste. Um gosh what else do we have here? So I noticed that this junmai daiginjo up here right? There's two kinds. What is the difference between this? They both come in a box but the label and the color is different.

00:12:30 Kojima-san: The differences are rice variety. This blue bottle is from Yamada Nishiki very famous sake rice variety like Chardonnay or Cabernet Sauvignon in wine. And this is from Yukimegami rice. Yukimegami is Yamagata's local rice variety.

00:12:51 John Daub: Wow and it does impact the taste quite a lot the different variety of rice. So yeah uh the Yamada Nishiki has a rich and smooth kind of variety and um Yukimegami is a bit more uh light and clean. Oh interesting. But the price is the same it doesn't matter?

00:13:16 Kojima-san: Uh yes because uh those two are from a very uh special process special method of pressing. It is a dripped sake. Uh. Not pressed.

00:13:31 John Daub: Hey for coffee some people would say that pressed coffee and drip coffee. Which one is better but does it make an impact with the taste of sake? We're going to find out. We have a couple of bottles here and I thought I thought maybe we would try some uh and give you some of the feedback. I'm not a sake master like our friend John Gauntner who he just look at his face and you can understand the meaning of the sake based on the expression on his face. I'm not as good as that. But we'll give it a try. Um let's start I don't want to start with the umeshu because it is quite sweet. That is the last one that might be the dessert. So let's try with the uh the let's try with the premium the drip sake. Yeah it's so exciting. So this is Toko in Yonezawa um dating back to uh 1597. Wow 16th century they've been making it. And Kojima-san is 24th generation. That's so clear. So for the process to make this junmai daiginjo how long does it take from start to finish?

00:14:47 Kojima-san: Uh in half? A month and a half for the fermentation and everything.

00:14:54 John Daub: All right I got a little tripod extender so I'm gonna put this up so you guys can you don't have to look up my nose. It's not yeah it's not a very good angle. Uh and if you do have any questions in the playback leave me a comment in the video and I will I'll try to answer it and you know I I think Yonezawa is really easy to get to and I hope to do some more um videos about this place. It's right off of the the Shinkansen line right? And there's more to see and do here than just Yonezawa beef right? Everybody knows about Yonezawa's beef but it's time for you to learn about the sake. Because Tohoku has some of the best. All right. So this is uh the drip.

00:15:44 Kojima-san: Drip. Drip Junmai Daiginjo.

00:15:50 John Daub: Give it a try here. It has a sweet smell to it. The sake there's like dry and then there's sweet. This would be dry? No this is very uh it's a middle or semi-sweet. Yeah see for me as a beginner um finding a semi-sweet sake was more palatable. And I got tired of them. I wanted something with more characteristics. So if you're looking for something that's very smooth and easy to drink I get a feeling that this is going to be a really good one to start with. Kanpai everybody. Oh that's good. I had this like five minutes ago so it's hard for me to fake an initial reaction. You're not going to believe it. I felt it's such a clean clear taste. It just cuts straight through to your happy place. That's how I described it earlier. It's a little fruity. It doesn't have much of a bite to it and it's been polished down to 35.

00:17:06 Kojima-san: Yeah 35.

00:17:07 John Daub: Yeah so the rice grain which is the Yamada Nishiki variety of rice has been polished down where 65% of it is just thrown away and 35% remains which is the starch which has a very high sugar content and you want to get rid of the outside of it because it has a lot of impurities. So from the core of the rice you get to purity.

00:17:30 Kojima-san: They're very more pure I guess. Yes pure and also you can we can feel more you know aroma factors aroma elements. Yeah from this clear taste.

00:17:42 John Daub: And you could just smell this all day long. I mean I smell like like pineapple a little bit.

00:17:53 Kojima-san: Yeah pineapple and pears, apples.

00:18:00 John Daub: Pears, apples. Yeah and this comes the more you polish it could you polish it down to like 1% I mean how like how what's the limit of polishing rice.

00:18:10 Kojima-san: I don't I don't know I heard 14 is possible maybe but. Yeah uh yes some produce it to 1%.

00:18:24 John Daub: They do? Wow. And does that taste clear or is it just water? Because I can't imagine the grain getting down to 1%. But it must be kind of a waste to polish so much and get rid of so much of the rice, right?

00:18:38 Kojima-san: Yes, but actually, you know, the sake is a zero-waste product. I mean, outside of the sake, rice grain is used for farm fertilizer or feeding of animals. And a middle part of white powders for like a rice cracker or some other food. So actually, almost all of the ingredients are used to some style.

00:19:06 John Daub: Yeah. So for those joining us, we're at Toko Brewery Museum here in Yonezawa. And we're trying some of the Japanese sake. Can I try one of the other ones that's not... This is a Junmai Daiginjo, like top of the line. What about these other two? Other two here, what's different about them?

00:19:26 Kojima-san: This is the Koshu (aged sake). This sake is the sake item only for this shop. And this is another label. This is kind of a dry style sake.

00:19:44 John Daub: Oh, interesting. Yeah, so I'd like to try one of these. Which one would you recommend? This one, yeah? Yeah, this is a different style. One of the questions that a lot of people ask, not everybody is a sake master. So in order for you to find a sake that you like, it is really good for you to try a lot of it. And when you come to Japan, like you have an opportunity to do just that. And one of the great things with coming to a sake museum or a sake brewery is that you get a chance to try all of the variety that they have there and find one that you like. And I've been to a lot of sake breweries. I never ever leave a brewery with nothing. I always get like three or four bottles because I find something that I like. So let's try this one here. Kanpai. Oh, wow. The smell is quite different. Almost like a vanilla. Or is that my hands from all the alcohol that I've had? This one has much more of a bite to it. But there's so much more characteristics to it when it's not polished down so much. How far is this one?

00:21:25 Kojima-san: This is 55.

00:21:28 John Daub: 55%, meaning 45% of the rice has been polished away, leaving 55% remaining. So it gives it more characteristic. And I'm not a professional sake drinker. But I will tell you this. The more I get acquainted with Japanese sake, the more I like to try sake that has more character and flavor to it, which means that not polished down as much. But each sake brewery really specializes. There's a lot of work that goes into making a new type of sake. And you can taste that craftsmanship in each bottle that you open. So I know that. I know your first reaction might be go to the most expensive one. But don't pass up a chance to buy one of the other bottles, too, and give a chance to compare what the depth of each sake brewery. And Toko's got some pretty good selection over there for you to try. And that Umeshu, which is next. Whoa. That's another thing a lot of people have asked me. They see in the movies Japanese sake. Do you sip it? Or do you take it as a shot? How do you drink your sake?

00:22:45 Kojima-san: You sip it. Yeah, yeah.

00:22:48 John Daub: You sip it just a little bit at a time. I know maybe you've seen in the movies, like, people are drinking it like this. I think especially really good sake, you want to savor it. It's very much like a wine. Sometimes you'll see sake being served in wine glasses. So in these situations, it's got such a depth to it. But you sip it by taking it as a shot, you're kind of wasting it. This isn't vodka. The other thing is after you open a bottle of sake, it will probably... You probably should drink it within a month. You can refrigerate it, right? After opening?

00:23:27 Kojima-san: After opening, I recommend drink it in one week or 10 days. Maybe one week.

00:23:36 John Daub: A week to 10 days. So it doesn't keep, like, spirits. It's more like... It's brewed. This is a brewery. So it doesn't have the same thing, same shelf life as, like, vodka or something like that. So something for beginners to definitely understand that. The taste will change after you open the bottle, right? As it's exposed to this. All right. Let's try this Umeshu. I've had a few of these. So I might be happier than most people. Get yourself a one cup for the ride home. That, I'm not going to do when I'm in Tokyo, okay? I don't need to go get a vending machine sake. All right. This is Umeshu. And, wow, I'm pretty excited for my second glass here. And if you have any questions, in the last couple of minutes, we're going to ask the CEO, Kojima-san, about all of the sake that they have here. Kanpai, everybody. This is so good. I was telling everybody else, I want to take a bath in this, which is not, which is such a waste, but that's how much I love this. It doesn't make any sense to take a bath in it, but it is so sweet. It's got kind of like a pineapple-y sweetness to it, but not with the acidic aftertaste of the pineapple, just the sugar of it, which is incredible. And then it's... That sweetness has... Like, it's just so wide. You drink it, and it just melts across your entire mouth. It's an amazing experience. This Umeshu is an experience. It's not just a drink, but it's very sweet.

00:25:45 Kojima-san: And sugar content is quite high. Yes. So, we... In many cases, we serve with ice on the rocks. Ah. And it is for the starter. So, it's either a starter of a water, of a thinner, or like a dessert wine.

00:26:03 John Daub: So, I make my own Umeshu at home. I take Ume plums, put it in a jar with some sugar and some alcohol, and wait one year. Is that the same process?

00:26:16 Kojima-san: Completely different. Oh my gosh. I mean, you know, that's a very common way of Umeshu making. Actually, our method is different. Especially, we don't get the, you know, aroma and taste of seed. So we get only a fruity part of plum taste. So, that's the difference from the other plums, okay? So, you don't feel like a seed or a glassy nuance. Just a fruity. That's the difference. It is very, very... Fruity.

00:26:56 John Daub: I can't even believe that there's alcohol in this. I can't taste the alcohol. There's no heat or no, like, bite. Why is that? Why is this so smooth? What's the alcohol content?

00:27:08 Kojima-san: 11%.

00:27:10 John Daub: 11%. I can't taste it. How do you do it? What is this magic? I'm serious. This is not the alcohol talking. Is there a secret recipe? Like Kentucky Fried Chicken?

00:27:29 Kojima-san: I think, you know, this, I mean, melting texture, well-covered alcohol filling, I guess.

00:27:41 John Daub: Ah, it does a really good job. How much of it has to do with the water of Yonezawa? I guess, I've been to Niigata, to Hakkaisan. There's a mountain there. And I tried the water from the mountain. And it had no taste. It was like the most neutral tasting water. Is there something with the water in Yonezawa that makes the sake and the umeshu quite good?

00:28:03 Kojima-san: Yeah, I think so. Yonezawa, we are located at the most close place from the beginning of Mogami River. That's our water source. And the taste of water is like a very rounded, soft water. So you can taste the water.

00:28:28 John Daub: Really? I'm pretending. I know where the water is because I was, I scouted this. All right, it's out here. You can actually taste, um, the water runs through the brewery here. And they have a place where you can just taste the water. This is so cool.

00:28:46 Kojima-san: In this museum, the visitor, sake making water.

00:28:52 John Daub: The essence of sake is the water. That's water. But how good is this water? That's very balanced. I don't know, since we started, humanity started to drink more bottled water, we've been used to drinking water from all around the world, all around Japan too. This water that I'm drinking right now, is this like wakimizu (fresh drawn water)? Is it coming straight from nature?

00:29:42 Kojima-san: It is from underground. So we pump up.

00:29:46 John Daub: Oh, you pump the water up from the outside. One of the... What I've learned from sake and other brewing processes is you want water that is just a flat base, that's very well rounded, like a neutral pH balance, not something that is a very acidic or very base, very like zero, or is it... What's the pH of this water? Would you know offhand?

00:30:13 Kojima-san: I'm not sure, maybe.

00:30:16 John Daub: Ask the tough questions. I know zero is not neutral. I think it was seven or something. I can't remember my pH scale. I was awful in science. Seven is neutral, right. So maybe it's close to seven, I think. When you drink it, you get a feeling, and it feels to me it's very close to seven. Just like a neutral base, and it's a blank canvas to create with the rice, with the process. And I think that that shows in what you drink here in the brewery museum. Because the brewery is over on the street. Wow, it's really good. If you have any questions right now, I will now...

00:30:58 John Daub: Wow, is this the emperor?

00:31:01 Kojima-san: Yes. About 17 years ago.

00:31:09 John Daub: 17 years ago. Wow. The Heisei... That's not the Heisei emperor, is it? No, that's... He's Reiwa emperor. He's the Reiwa emperor. Yeah. He's the emperor now. He was a prince then, and now the emperor. That's so cool. Very cool. Any questions for Kojima-san and the Toko brewery? I'm happy to answer for the next couple of minutes. It tastes a bit watery. Well, it would because it was water. You know what? Things are crazy here. Has anyone distilled sake? I don't think sake... The process is not distilled. Shochu is distilled, you know, from potatoes, but sake... You can't distill rice. It's a process that's brewed. I wanted to mix fruit. If I wanted to mix this with a fruit, what would I mix it with? Can you mix sake with a fruit.

00:32:30 Kojima-san: I think melon or cucumber. Cucumber. Or adding some dry fruits is very interesting.

00:32:44 John Daub: Is there a non-alcoholic sake? It defeats the point a little bit, but if there's non-alcoholic beer, would there be a sake equivalent?

00:32:56 Kojima-san: I don't know.

00:33:03 John Daub: It's a hard one because part of the taste is that alcohol. If you get rid of that, it's hard to make. If you're driving, don't drink sake. Drink water or something else. What type of sake does the emperor prefer? How do you answer that?

00:33:21 Kojima-san: Actually, I heard the emperor loves sake. But his favorite type of sake is very top secret.

00:33:32 John Daub: Because if he says something, it'll be a superpower. The brand will be sold out. Yeah, he can't take favorites. So obviously, he might have a secret brand. He'll never just tell it because that will impact a part of the country. That would impact more than just the brewery. But a part of the country, you can't play favorites. So, sake is exported to Canada from Japan. So you export, you said, to 20 countries?

00:34:08 Kojima-san: Yes, 20 countries, including the U.S. and Canada. So, the Blue Bottle sake you tried is exported to the U.S. and also Canada.

00:34:24 John Daub: Would you drink any of those sakes as Atsukan (hot sake)?

00:34:29 Kojima-san: Yeah. We have Junmai sake. That's one of the very kind of basic line of our sake. Junmai is good for warm sake.

00:34:41 John Daub: I typically don't drink sake warm. What I do is I'll put it in the refrigerator and take it out. And as it gradually warms up, the aromas start to come out too, like a flower opening up as it warms from the refrigerator from a cooler place. I typically don't drink hot sake because, number one, I don't know. It just messes up the sake. It messes up my mind. It's dangerous, all right? Hot sake is dangerous. It's deceptively strong because it's your body temperature and bad things happen to me anyways. Can you export to Finland? We got some Finns here. Finland, maybe not yet. We have a partner in Denmark, but not in Finland. Not in Finland yet. Yeah, those Finns drink a lot. They go to sauna and then drink sake. I don't know. How long can sake last before it goes bad? So if you don't open a bottle, what's the shelf life of...

00:35:45 Kojima-san: Yeah, we say shelf life is one year, but I don't recommend leave that with light and a warm temperature. It's same with wine. And the good temperature is a bit lower. Maybe wine is like 12 degrees. I mean, it's Celsius, 12 degrees Celsius. But sake should be under, mean, five degree Celsius. So refrigerator is the best.

00:36:20 John Daub: Right. 12 degrees is about 53 degrees Fahrenheit and five degrees would be, what is that, like 40 degrees. Just a little bit above freezing. Yeah. So that's, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Do you export to Australia and Czech Republic? People want to buy this. They want to buy Toko.

00:36:39 Kojima-san: Australia, yes. Czech is not yet.

00:36:46 John Daub: That's a shame for the Czech Republic. I'll bring a bottle to Prague when Kanae and I come for the Christmas markets when they open up again. We could try it in a meetup or something. All right. I don't want to take too much of your time because I want to buy some bottles before the store really closes. Thanks everybody for watching. If you have a question, you can leave it in the comments below. And I will ask Kojima-san later on, especially if it's a good question, not about like how much can you drink in one night and things like this. These are questions we'll answer in another time. Thanks everybody for watching. I appreciate it. I'll try to do something with Yonezawa tonight, maybe a midnight snack run. I don't know. I've been to Yonezawa maybe three or four times over the last 23 years that I lived here. There's a lot for me to explore. So have a good day. Have a good night wherever you are in the world. Thanks. See you next time. Enjoy the last 20 seconds of the relaxing sounds of flowing water.