00:00 John Daub: Wow. Not only do we have a beautiful day, we have in front of us the Bizen Osafune Sword Museum. And we're going to take a look inside in this live stream. But I wanted to start here for one particular reason. Check this out. They have very impressive manhole covers. Look at that. That is a swordsmith actually making the sword. He's hammering it. Surrounded by flowers, which is very famous in this part of Okayama Prefecture, which is where we are. That's kind of cool. And look at that. They've colored that manhole cover, which, I'm a manholer. Manholers, what do you call people who love manhole covers? Don't get the wrong idea. This museum right now is quite busy on a Sunday, but we have access to go inside. And I want to introduce you to a friend of mine who's from the area working with the Setouchi. He can explain to us. This is Tomi.

00:30 Tomi: So, yeah, I'm working for the museum, in fact, and I do a lot of international relations stuff for the museum. So if you come to me at any point, I'll be around to answer any of your questions.

00:45 John Daub: So he'll be here, right?

00:50 Tomi: Yeah, I'll be here.

00:55 John Daub: You'll be here. Literally right here on this spot. So if you want to come and see Tomi, you could just come here and meet him here at the museum. But he's a wealth of knowledge on this museum and the process of making swords. And that's what we're here for, because I just finished up a live stream with J&TO explaining the process. It was kind of short, and I think that this live stream might fill in some of the blanks and I could take some of your questions as well. But if you want to see more of the process, that live stream is available on Facebook and on the J&TO Canada YouTube page, I believe. This is the gift shop, right?

01:30 Tomi: Yes, we've got two gift shops. So one is just sort of random tourist stuff. But then in here, in fact, we've got an independent shop run by a local jeweler and he's selling his own stuff. Some jewelry made by the artisans here. But then also they've got some original tsuba (sword guards), like historical pieces, which you can buy yourself. So some of them are up to 400 years old.

02:00 John Daub: Oh, my gosh. Can you actually buy the swords that they're making inside there?

02:15 Tomi: So the swords they're making inside the museum, you can't buy in the shop here because they tend to have a limited amount of them at any one time. But you can actually just go and talk to the artisans. And if you want, you can get one made for you. So you can talk to them, go over the design and get one on order.

02:45 John Daub: Holy smokes. So you can come here and see the artisans. So you can come here and order a sword to be made by the craftsmen. And how long is that process?

03:00 Tomi: Well, it depends what you want. So there's all kinds of bells and whistles so that you can get attached to it, like a fancy scabbard and so on. But just the blade will run you about just a month to make it. But they tend to have a bit of a waiting list. So it can be up to a year. But it's well worth waiting because there's nowhere outside of Japan you can get this kind of stuff.

03:30 John Daub: You can order a sword. People have been asking, where can I get a real samurai sword? Right here. Right here. And this is Bizen. The Bizen province area of Okayama is famous as being one of the largest producers of swords from about 700 years ago. The 13th century, 14th century, all the way to the beginning of the Edo period, which started at 1603. The Shogun, and this is the entrance to the museum, the Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu brought peace to Japan. And the wars sort of ended and they didn't have as big a need for swords. So during this period, as I introduced you, half of all the swords in Japan were produced in the other livestream. So they're all quite old if you find them. And yeah, this was the largest producer of the swords. And this museum is very, very important as a result of being one of the largest producers. Actually, because of time, maybe we should go in and sneak in. They're striking the swords and making it. And I want to take you inside the museum to see some of the newer swords made. So if you were to order a sword, it would look similar to what is inside there because they're all Reiwa period swords. This is the Reiwa era, which started five years ago in Japan. Oh, okay, there's something going on right now. Inside there is where the craftsmen are right now. The swordsmiths are hammering out the metal. And I'm not sure if we can actually film in there. We're going to ask first. We're going to ask and find out if they're okay. So usually if you come to the museum, you would be able to just go in and see them working. But today there's kind of a special event kind of going on. So it's up to them whether we can actually come in and see them. So we're not quite sure if we can film in there, but we're going to find out because I would love to show you this process. Okay, let's find out. They're coming again, right?

05:00 Tomi: They're currently doing the preparations. So they're just getting the charcoal starting to burn and getting up to heat. And then when the customers who've ordered for this order go on, when they come, they'll start the hammering. So what you can see in there at the moment is the master smith, Ando-san, who's in fact actually walking to the door right now. So he'll be sitting down on the ground next to the forge. And he'll be counting at the rhythm for the two strikers who will have the big eight kilo sledgehammers and will be taking it in turn as to beat out the hot steel.

06:00 John Daub: Oh, how cool is that? I saw the process earlier in another live stream. And you can go and see that on the J&TO YouTube channel for Canada, I believe. And on my Facebook page, Only in Japan TV, you can see that as well. But we'll try to bring you that too. Really quickly, while we're waiting for them to prepare, I guess we can show them some of the other stages really quickly.

06:30 Tomi: Yeah, so we went over a lot of this on the stream before. But there's about eight different craftsmen currently involved in making Japanese swords. So back in the day, you know, a few hundred years ago, there might have been, you know, ten, dozens of them. And they were all working on it. But now it's been whittled down to about eight. So we've got the swordsmith who makes the main sword and he'll engrave his name on there. And he's kind of like the head artisan in a way. And then you have a polisher who will spend many, many weeks polishing out the sword and bring out all of the beautiful features of the sword. And that will take about a month. And then you've got these different artisans who make all these of the gold and silver and bronze fittings.

07:30 John Daub: Wow.

07:35 Tomi: And all of the gold and silver fittings. So what we're coming to right here is the lacquerer. So his job is when he receives a wooden sword scabbard from the other artisan, he'll spend, you know, again, months and months painting on lacquer using a brush made with human hair.

08:00 John Daub: Human hair. I'm still freaked out by this. Don't worry, they're not going around stealing it from people's heads. They are. They do get it donated. But it's apparently just exactly the right consistency, thickness, and it's very sturdy. And of course, again, it being such a sort of weird and wacky material, they have to make the tools themselves. The brushes are all handmade. Everything is handmade. Everything's handmade. It's really because a sword is such a, I guess if you order it, it's an intimate thing to have made, isn't it?

09:00 Tomi: Yeah.

09:05 John Daub: Which is why I guess custom ordering it. What are some of the things you can actually customize if you were to order a sword? I mean, everything, absolutely everything.

09:30 Tomi: So the, of course, the blade itself, you can say exactly what features you want, what hamon you want. And the hamon I'm sure we'll go over when we go into the museum later. That's just the pattern that's created by the quenching process. When you cool it, it creates a pattern on that sword.

10:00 John Daub: You could actually customize that?

10:10 Tomi: Yeah. So you can. So with Japanese sword arts, there's all different schools and styles. So you can specify exactly what kind you want. And then again, length and sharpness or whatever. It's awesome. But then also, I mean, with the fittings. So the scabbard, the scabbard is made up of lots of different kinds of pieces. Again, all with different styles and variations. So you can talk about materials where you want copper or bronze or whatever. Whether you want to have just a plain scabbard for storage, just wood, or do you want something a bit more fancy? But again, all these different levels will add up to the final price. And in fact, in here.

11:00 John Daub: Which could be how much is one of the questions. It could be like, I think you said $9,000 is the start. So $9,000 would be just for like a basic sword blade polished in a storage scabbard. That's kind of the exact, the bare minimum. And that would be from a fairly new swordsmith. Someone who's not made a name for themselves. But it can get up into the hundreds of thousands for someone who is a national treasure or something like this. And that's just new made swords. So you can also buy old swords. As you're talking about, most of them were made back in the past. And so in fact, one of the swords which we have in this museum, not on display at the moment sadly.

12:00 Tomi: But that cost $4,000. $5,000,000 USD.

12:15 John Daub: And in fact, that's with a discount.

12:20 Tomi: That's a discount.

12:25 John Daub: So the city bought that. So got a discount for being a public institution. But if it had been a normal private customer, $10,000,000 USD.

12:45 Tomi: Holy smokes. $10,000,000 USD.

12:50 John Daub: I know that, believe it or not, the most expensive sword on record is $100,000,000. And it's a Japanese tachi apparently that was an auction. It was appraised at $100,000,000. The most expensive sword in the world of all the swords. It was 10 times more expensive than Napoleon's sword. That's how much Japanese katana are valued around the world. Out of the perfection of the artistic craftsmanship that goes into each one of them. I don't want to bother Katayama-san very much. I don't want to go in there. Is he okay?

14:00 Tomi: He should be fine. I think he's probably just talking to a couple of customers.

14:10 John Daub: Hey, Joy. Hello, hi. How's the signal? I hope it's okay. We're using a pocket Wi-Fi router. I guess it's okay. I kind of want to show you a little bit of the tools and stuff.

14:30 Tomi: Yeah. Shall we go in?

14:35 John Daub: Yeah. Let's go in. Okay. All right. Thanks. Hello, hi. Let's take a look at the process here. Konnichiwa. Konnichiwa. Konnichiwa. Konnichiwa. Konnichiwa. Konnichiwa. Konnichiwa. So I wanted to show you that Katayama-san has all of these tools. Check it out. Each one of them has a special purpose. The ones he uses the most are in this box here. and then there are other tools just color-coded. So you really have to have a lot of experience to, I guess, just differentiate the different tools that are necessary. But I remember he's making that tsuba, right?

16:00 Tomi: Yeah, so he's making tsuba, which is the sword guard. And so, in fact, this one he's making for his own research. So, of course, you know, all of these are based on historical pieces. And the techniques vary from piece to piece and from period to period. So this one he's doing for his own self-improvement. And so you can see it's layers of chrysanthemum flowers, all of different heights and stuff, and, of course, all done with these tiny chisels and a hammer.

16:45 John Daub: Yeah, what's the material?

16:50 Tomi: This is iron. So the chisels are various different types of steel. So he'll buy the blanks from a shop, and then he'll actually shape them all himself. And the material that he's... using for the tsuba is, I think, a kind of copper.

17:15 John Daub: A door, isn't it? A copper, yeah.

17:20 Tomi: But there's all kinds of different things. So, in fact, if you looked at it, and it was this color, it might not actually just be copper. There are some alloys, like one called shakudō, which is gold and copper. And when you look at it, when it's being worked, it looks just like regular copper. But then they add a few secret chemicals, and it turns a pitch black.

17:45 John Daub: Whoa!

17:50 Tomi: Yeah. So that's part of the customization when you make a sword, there's a lot of questions that you have to answer.

18:00 John Daub: Yeah, and one thing, so, is that they have lots of different metals like this, alloys where you can change the color. And so they almost like painting a picture, they will use different alloys and inlay them so you can make a whole portrait just using different types of metals. Holy smokes, that is a lot of tools. I didn't know about the secret compartment underneath there. There's even more, bigger tools. Each one, again, has a special purpose. But the fine details, you need to have a tool with that exact size. And when he doesn't have one, he makes them himself. The tool was just incredible. And that explains why he's got over 200 different types of tools, because he's been doing this for so many decades. And then, you know, over that time, he's found new cases that he needs a new tool for, and he just makes it himself. Does Katayama-san only do the tsuba, or does he do other aspects of the swords?

19:30 Tomi: So, yeah, he does any of the fittings, really. But his main work, and what he's most famous for, is he engraves sword blades. So in fact, one thing you can see behind us here is this spear. And this spear was carved by Katayama-san. So it's a replica of a very famous yari (spear) called the Nihongo. And so it's been made to replicate all dimensions, the hamon, and the engraving of the original.

20:15 John Daub: Holy smokes, that's pretty long. I notice it is a spear because it's not curved. Usually the katana and tachi are curved, right?

20:30 Tomi: Yeah, so there are various different types of swords. So in the museum, usually you'll just see the swords themselves, but you've got spears, these things called naginata, which are kind of like, more like sword blades, but you put them on poles, like, you call it a glaive or something like that.

21:00 John Daub: Whoa! But there's loads of different unique styles. Can you see the edge? Look at the hachi. The edge on there is, that's super fine. It's hard to see. We're going to go inside the museum, and you're going to see some of the final product, the finished products in there, but that's pretty awesome. He's holding a sword here. Wow. And of course, what you'll see there is, we had two customers in there talking with the polisher about a sword that he had. And one of the benefits of having all these artisans here is that they can discuss these things between each other.

22:00 Tomi: Oh, right.

22:05 John Daub: So as you saw with the two customers, the engraver had an insight, and so he could just listen to the conversation and then contribute to that discussion.

22:15 Tomi: Right.

22:20 John Daub: It's a great place for learning and improving the study of Japanese swords. You know, sword making has evolved from being a weapon, because unless you're watching Walking Dead and you're, you know, Michonne and you need a new sword, but you should get one here, Michonne. It's really nice. You're not going to really need it except for something for art. Unless, you know, that would make a pretty interesting TV drama. Probably someone had thought of that. So, I mean, having all these artisans together working on the same sword, it really is an asset to have a place like this. I guess in the Bizen area, is this the only place that's now making swords?

23:30 Tomi: Well, so this is like the only institution, but you've actually got a few different swordsmiths who are independent. So they have their own workshops with their own houses. And so just in this area, which is called Osafune, which is part of Setouchi City, it's about 10 sword makers, swordsmiths. But across the whole of Japan, there's around 300 people with a license. Because to make Japanese swords in Japan, by law, you had to have a license. So you'll do five years plus of apprenticeship, and then you'll take a very, very strict test, which the government oversees. So there's about 300 with licenses and about 50 who are making a living from it.

24:30 John Daub: Wow. In the Bizen area?

24:35 Tomi: Across the whole country.

24:40 John Daub: Oh, the whole country. So 50 people make a living off of this.

24:45 Tomi: Yeah.

24:50 John Daub: Wow. And the other ones will be making maybe Japanese knives, you know, kitchen knives and other little bits and bobs. So you can make a fairly good living if you have a clientele, I suppose.

25:00 Tomi: Well, good living? I wouldn't say good living. In fact, the polishers who are the ones driving around the Jaguar.

25:15 John Daub: Wow.

25:20 Tomi: But the swordsmiths, some of them can make a decent living, but most of them are, you know, they're doing it for the love of the craft, not the money.

25:30 John Daub: Yeah, I guess you really have to put a lot of love in order to make something so beautiful like this here. Okay, so I think I've already gone in there. I just wanted to show you really quickly in this exhibition room here. I hope there's a signal. So these swords here, these katana, this one here is actually a tachi.

26:00 Tomi: Yeah, so...

26:05 John Daub: Because of the way it's curved and pointing up.

26:10 Tomi: Yeah, so when we display swords, we display them in the same way that they're worn. So the tachi were worn on horseback, while katana were worn on foot. And if you're on foot, you want the sword edge to be facing upwards.

26:30 John Daub: Right.

26:35 Tomi: Because it makes it easier to draw it. But when you're on horseback, the opposite is true. You want it to be down. And so you can tell by looking at the sword when it's on display, when it's attached, the tachi or katana. So in this case, it's a tachi because the edge is facing down. And this one is actually a replica of one of the five swords under heaven, one of the five most famous swords in Japan, called the Odenta.

27:00 John Daub: Odenta.

27:05 Tomi: Odenta. Oh, do the swords go up in value like a diamond would be or gold or something like that? Is this something you would invest in?

27:15 John Daub: So it depends.

27:20 Tomi: So, well, from time to time, what types of swords are popular? So the price of what's popular will change. So a taste will change. And therefore the price of what's popular will go up. When you're investing in a sword, well, a newly made sword, the main thing that will change the value is what happens to the swordsmith. So if they become a living national treasure, and there's actually none at the moment, but they're looking to turn someone into a living national treasure now. But if someone becomes a living national treasure, their swords will just double, triple, quadruple in price.

27:30 John Daub: That is incredible. I think it, I guess an artist has to die or have a special story to make it a collectible. Over here, this is a, I guess this one is the best to see the hamon. Those swords I just showed you were swords that were made in the last couple of years. These are new samurai swords. But these ones here on the white cloth, these were made by previous living national treasures.

27:40 Tomi: Wow. So this one was made by a member of the family. His name is Gassan family. So there's multiple generations of Gassan swordsmiths working today even. You can see here the hamon is that part on the top that has a pattern to it. Do you see? That is made in the quenching process when it's put into the water, the rapid cooling.

27:50 John Daub: Is that right?

27:55 Tomi: Yeah, yeah. And then below that, you can see there's almost like a wood grain in the steel itself.

28:00 John Daub: Yeah, I see that.

28:05 Tomi: And that comes from the folding of the steel. So before when we talked to Ando-san, he was saying that they fold the steel, maybe 10 to 15, 15 times, and that creates all these layers which they can change the shape of. So in fact, this one, it has a kind of a wave pattern, and that's specific to this one family, the Gassan family.

28:15 John Daub: Yeah, you can see it doesn't, the way it actually does wave, it's on a straight line across, which is even more beautiful. And the proper way to look at the sword is left to right, and you follow the light. Usually there's a showcase light up here somewhere.

28:30 Tomi: Yes, the spotlight's actually behind us here.

28:35 John Daub: Okay, there's a spotlight that is, its sole purpose is to light up. So you can light it so that you can appreciate it by following the light along. You can see I'm trying to do it with the camera. That's the way I guess you would do that to see and really appreciate it, because the light brings out the details.

28:45 Tomi: Yeah, and yeah, so the, in fact, the lighting in this museum, we've been told, is pretty much the best in Japan. So even if you go to the National Museum in Tokyo, in Ueno Park, the lighting there is not as good as what we have here. But obviously that comes from being a specialist sword museum.

29:00 John Daub: Which is set up purposefully just to show swords. Yeah, there's value in specialization. I specialize in mobile live streaming. It's not, I'm not even on the same, not even on the same level as this one. I just wanted to show you that, and this is the largest sword I've ever seen. This is an actual sword, right?

29:30 Tomi: Yeah, so this was in fact made by a guy called Motonoshi Sukesada. And he was the last member of the Osafune school. And the Osafune school ran for, oh, it was the first one. It's 700 years in this area.

29:45 John Daub: Wow.

29:50 Tomi: And he made this one at the beginning of the 20th century. It's not the largest in Japan. So the largest one is over four meters.

30:00 John Daub: What?

30:05 Tomi: This is 330 centimeters. So in, what is it, three and a bit yards?

30:15 John Daub: Yeah, right. What man can wield this sword? You can be the emperor, perhaps. Although you mentioned that.

30:30 Tomi: This was in fact not made for a person, but to be dedicated to a temple.

30:45 John Daub: Oh, wow. This is for the gods to wield. So, ah. Ah, so if you can wield that, that would make you a god. Or I guess if you think like that, perhaps.

31:00 Tomi: Yes.